Welcome! You've discovered a lively series to explore a proposed Constitutional Amendment to prohibit any possibility of same-sex marriage. The following shows offer key information on a variety of issues. Our goal? To help you discover how this amendment will affect YOUR life from firsthand expert information. We welcome your thoughts & questions.

Here's our show lineup.

Constitutional Amendment 101
Dr. Andrew Koppelman

Professor of Law &
Political Science
Northwestern University
School of Law
357 East Chicago Ave
Chicago, IL 60611-3069
(312) 503-8431

The impact of defining marriage via a constitutional amendment as that of one man and one woman.

Guest: Andrew Koppelman

Dr. Koppelman is a Professor of Law and Political Science at Northwestern University. He is the author of Antidiscrimination Law and Social Equality (Yale University Press, 1996), The Gay Rights Question in Contemporary American Law (University of Chicago Press, 2002), and numerous articles including: Show Topics:
  • When was the last time we amended our Constitution.
  • Why did we believe we needed to amend same. (What happened in our society to create this amendment?)
  • Do parallel events exist today regarding same-sex marriages.
  • How do we actually amend our constitution.
  • Dr. Koppelman's personal thoughts on what such an amendment might mean.
  • Link to proposed Constitutional Amendment
  • Link to Constitution
Explore issues surrounding separation of church and state. Specifically, what are the pro's and con's of such separation (concerning same-sex marriage) at the state and church level.

M. V. Lee Badgett

Visiting Professor The Williams Project UCLA School of Law
Box 951476
Los Angeles, CA 90095-1476

What do states have to gain by the proposed constitutional amendment to limit marriage to opposite sex couples?

Guest: M. V. Lee Badgett

Dr. Badgett is a visiting professor at the Williams Project of UCLA Law School for 2005-6. She is also an associate professor of economics at the University of Massachusetts Amherst, where she is also on the faculty of the Center for Public Policy and Administration. She is the co-founder and researcher director of the Institute for Gay and Lesbian Strategic Studies, a national think tank on policy issues related to sexual orientation. Her work focuses on labor market discrimination based on sexual orientation, race, and gender, as well as family policy. Her book, Money, Myths, and Change : The Economic Lives of Lesbians and Gay Men (Worlds of Desire: The Chicago Series on Sexuality, Gender, and Culture) (University of Chicago Press), presents her groundbreaking work debunking the myth of gay affluence. She's working on a new book on the European experience with same-sex marriage.
Toby Johnson

POB 12822
San Antonio, TX, 78212-0822
Religion: - what do religious organizations have to gain by the proposed amendment to limit marriage to opposite sex couples?

Guest: Toby Johnson, PhD

Dr. Johnson is author of eight books: three nonfiction books that apply the wisdom of Joseph Campbell, his teacher and "wise old man," to modern-day social and religious problems, three gay genre novels that dramatize spiritual issues at the heart of gay identity, and two books on gay men's spirituality's, gay spirit, and the mystical experience of homosexuality. In addition to the novels featured elsewhere in his web site, Johnson is author of In Search Of God In The Sexual Underworld And The Myth Of The Great Secret (Revised edition): An Appreciation Of Joseph Campbell. Click for an extended bio.
Review legal ramifications to same-sex couples who lack access to a marriage certificate.
What standard costs / documents do same-sex couples need to gain the same rights and privilege's of a marriage certificate?
Impact to service or benefit delivery / access for those who do not have a marriage certificate (e.g., medical, survivors benefits, inheritance, etc.)
Steps to take to resolve open issues noted in the above shows, along with some future forecasting.

Guest: Mark Neil, Founder of Mark T. Neil & Associates

Mark is the founder and principal of Mark T. Neil and Associates, a law firm concentrating in probate, trust and estate planning. Clients include families of all levels of wealth accumulation including those with significant wealth. Planning is offered to individuals, couples, and multiple generations of the same family. Within these areas, the firm has a unique focus of providing estate planning to unmarried couples. He is finalizing a Smartbook for the Illinois Institute of Continuing Legal Education on "Planning for Unmarried Couples." The firm provides services in estate administration as well. This would include preparation of accountings and preparation of estate, gift and GST tax returns.

The firm’s practice also includes the representation of financial institutions in their fiduciary capacity as trustees and executors. The types of representation involve trust construction cases as well as liability cases. Mark has more than 25 years of experience in legal, financial, and fiduciary matters. He has spoken before client and professional associations on topics ranging from the use of listed options in trust accounts to non-qualified deferred compensation. Most recently, he spoke to the National Academy of Elder Law attorneys on the Prudent Investor Statute. Mark has also acted as an expert witness in trust litigation.

A graduate of Northwestern University School of Law, Mark clerked for the Chief Justice of the Illinois Supreme Court. He served as trust counsel at Harris Trust and Savings Bank before managing the Trust and Investment Department at Cole Taylor Bank as the Department Head.

Mark is a member of the Illinois State Bar Association and the Chicago Bar Association. He is a co-founder and a former director of North Star Trust Company, an independent trust company. As such, it manages more the $1,000,000,000 in investment assets and has a national market in both the 1031 like kind exchange arena and the trusteeship of nonpublic ESOPS. He has served on the Treasurer’s Business Roundtable for Illinois State Treasurer Judy Baar Topinka and is presently a member of the Alliance of Latinos and Jews. He has served as a Director of the Institute of Clinical Social Work. He currently serves on the Advisory Board of ECI, a for profit Latina owned business; is a Director of the Rogers Park Builders Group; and is a Director of the Alternatives to Marriage Project, a national 501 (c) (3) organization. A resident of Chicago, he has two adult children, David and Deanna.

Exploring real-life stories - nationally:
Lesbian Couple

Guests: Del Martin & Phyllis Lyon

For many, this world famous long term couple is recognized for being the first US legally married lesbian couple along with organizing the first U.S. national lesbian rights organization, Daughters of Bilitis, in 1955. Try this google search to learn the depth and breath of this couples work.


For most of her life she has been an activist both politically and in the workplace, first in journalism, then with the Lesbian, Gay and Women's Movements, and later in the field of sexology. She co-founded numerous organizations, including the Daughters of Bilitis (1955), the National Sex Forum (1968) and The Institute for Advanced Study of Human Sexuality (1976), a San Francisco graduate school of sexology. Prior to entering the field of sexology she worked on a newspaper as a general reporter and on a trade magazine in Seattle, where she met Del Martin who, three years later, was to become her domestic partner in a relationship that has lasted 51 years.

In 1972 she co-authored with Del Martin the book Lesbian/Woman which was updated and reissued in 1991 in a 20-year anniversary edition. Publisher's Weekly called it one of the 20 most important women's books of the last 20 years. From 1976 to 1987 she served on the San Francisco Human Rights Commission and for two of those years was the Commission Chairperson. In another phase of her activism she was appointed by Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi as a delegate to the White House Conference on Aging held in 1995. She also co-keynoted the Conference on Gay and Lesbian Aging held at Fordham University in 1998. She is a member of OLOC.


An activist in the Lesbian, Gay and Women©s Movements, she was a co-founder of the Daughters of Bilitis (1955), Council on Religion and the Homosexual (1964), Alice B. Toklas Memorial Democratic Club (1972). Del was elected in 1973 to the National Board of Directors of the National Organization for Women as its first out Lesbian. She served on San Francisco's Commission on the Status of Women 1976-79 (as chair 1976-77) and on the California Commission on Crime Control and Violence Prevention (1980-83). Del is co-author of the book Lesbian/Woman with Phyllis Lyon, her domestic partner of 51 years.

She is also the author of Battered Wives which was the catalyst for the national movement against domestic violence. She was appointed by Senator Dianne Feinstein as a delegate to the White House Conference on Aging held in May, 1995. With Phyllis Lyon, she keynoted the Gay and Lesbian Aging Conference sponsored by Senior Action in a Gay Environment and Fordham University in 1998. She is a member of OLOC.

On February 12, 2004, Phyllis and Del were the first same sex couple to be legally married in the United States. It happened in San Francisco when the City's Mayor, Gavin Newsom, declared that it was an unconstitutional discrimination not to allow same sex couples the right to marry and told the County Clerk to allow such marriages. Subsequently more than 4,000 same sex couples were married. However, on August 12, 2004, the California State Supreme Court ruled that Mayor Newsom did not have the power to change the laws about marriage and declared that all the marriage licenses filed under his order were null and void. A case is now in San Francisco's Superior Court asking that the judge rule on the constitutionality of the state's marriage laws.

Toby Johnson & Kip Dollar

POB 12822
San Antonio
TX, 78212-0822
Gay Couple

Guest: Toby Johnson, PhD & Kip Dollar

Please see show #6 above for Johnson information.

Toby Johnson and Kip Dollar have been partners since 1984. They have been advocates for and examples of successful long-term gay relationships. Toby and Kip were the first male couple registered as Domestic Partners in Texas (Austin, Travis County, Oct. 1, 1993).

Kip Dollar is a professional bookkeeper and community activist. It was he who managed the financial matters of Liberty Books. He worked with numerous gay community groups and organizations in San Antonio and Austin.
He is a talented natural artist, working on paper in watercolors, pastels, and charcoal and in sculpture with clay. He is presently studying pastels with portrait artist Susan Carlin and with renowned watercolorist Brad Braune. Kip is also a creator of marvelous Halloween costumes.

For seven years, Toby Johnson and Kip Dollar ran Liberty Books, the lesbian and gay community bookstore in Austin. Toby and Kip sold the store to Crossroads Market in 1994. In Spring 1997, they moved to Conifer, Colorado in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains near Denver where they ran a gay B&B called The House at Peregrine's Perspective. In 2000, they moved back to Texas to operate a B&B called Casa Peregrino in the little artist colony/river resort town of Wimberley midway between San Antonio and Austin in the Texas Hill Country. And in 2003, they sold Casa Peregrino and moved back to their hometown to watch over Kip's parents, and to plan their next life adventure together.
Kenneth B. Morgen, Ph.D.

Director, Chesapeake
Psychological Services
President, Baltimore
Psychological Association
28 Allegheny Ave. Suite 1304
Towson, MD 21204
(410) 321-1091
Gay family (with children)

Guests: Kenneth B. Morgen, Ph.D. & Dr. Sam Westrick

Director of Chesapeake Psychological Services and the Coaching Center, Towson, MD Ken Morgen is a licensed clinical psychologist and personal and executive coach in private practice in Towson, Maryland. Dr. Morgen also consults at a school for emotional disturbed children. He has been practicing for 30 years and has particular expertise in the area of gay and lesbian concerns. He is on the staff of two Baltimore area hospitals, has taught and guest-lectured at a variety of colleges and universities and has presented workshops at local, state and national professional and civic organizations on gay and lesbian issues most recently at the National Institutes of Health and the Veterans Administration Medical Center in Baltimore. In addition to his clinical and teaching obligations, he was appointed by the former governor of Maryland to a statewide commission to study sexual orientation discrimination in Maryland and is currently the President of the Baltimore Psychological Association.
Dr. Morgen has long worked assiduously at promoting understanding and tolerance of gays and lesbians. He has served on several advisory boards of local AIDS and civil rights organizations. He has testified to legislators on numerous occasions to promote civil rights for sexual minorities and to repeal sodomy laws to the Baltimore City and County Councils and to members of the Maryland Senate.

Over the years, Dr. Morgen has been an invited guest on such national and local television shows as Hour Magazine and People Are Talking, where he was interviewed by Oprah Winfrey. He has also been interviewed on a variety of radio talk shows with local and national audiences. Most recently, he could be seen with his family on the nationally televised Iyanla Show. Aside from his professional writings, which include a doctoral dissertation on schizophreniform disorder and published works on counseling the HIV-positive patient, he has contributed articles, op-ed pieces and book reviews to a variety of local newspapers and magazines on gay-related issues.

Book award nominee, Getting Simon: Two Gay Doctors' Journey to Fatherhood (Bramble Books, 1995) is Dr. Morgen's memoir on becoming a parent. Dr. Morgen lives in suburban Baltimore with his partner of 28 years, Dr. Sam Westrick, a family practitioner who specializes in treating lesbian, gay, bisexual and their two children, now 11 and 13.

Old Wisdom

Guests: Del Martin, Phyllis Lyon and Annalee Stewart

Please review show #11 above for Martin/Lyon information.

For details about Professor Emeritus Annalee Stewart (University of Minnesota Social Work) please review her lengthy google trail.

In this show, we'll tap into the wisdom of these three old women to learn how we might best proceed with the proposed Constitutional Amendment to legally limit marriage to opposite sex couples.

Show 17: G & L Non-Active Military


Guest: Retired Colonel Cammermeyer

Once you've had a chance to review Col. Cammermeyer's bio, you'll understand how we couldn't possible find a better expert to speak to the issues concerning same-sex marriage and the military.

Please join us as we discuss how the proposed Constitutional Amendment to legally limit marriage to opposite sex couples would impact active military. For all those concerned about the impact of "don't ask, don't tell," please review H. R. 1059 Military Readiness Enhancement Act of 2005. Will you take up our call to action on this show to write your elected officials concerning this bill? We hope so, for it concerns how your tax dollars are well spent or ill used.

Exploring real-life stories - internationally:
W. Mead, Dr. S.

2517 GN
Den Haag
The Netherlands 2517GN
The Netherlands (one of the first countries to legalize same-sex marriage).

Guest: Christopher W. Mead, Dr. S.
Dr. Mead received his Ph.D. in Clinical Psychology and Psychotherapy in 1979. His Dissertation on The Phenomenological Experience of Men in Commitment in Gay Relationships formed the basis of his initial Private psychotherapy practice in San Francisco through the 1980's. Over the past two decades, he's kept most active with:
  • clinical practice and as consultant and research associate at The University of California San Francisco and at the University Hospital in Leiden, The Netherlands for people with HIV
  • Founder and President of the Netherlands Friends of Jung Society, Amsterdam, The Netherlands.
  • Associate Professor at the University of Leiden in the Department of Clinical Psychology.
  • Private psychotherapy practice as a Jungian analyst in The Netherlands.
  • Author and coauthor of numerous articles on AIDS and HIV Infection.
As a former San Francisco resident now resident of the Netherlands, Dr. Mead shares his experiences as he watched a country go through the process to legalize same-sex marriage. Dr. Mead enjoys his committed relationship for the past 16 1/2 years with Jan Kosten. Jan is a Curator of 16th and 17th Century Dutch and Flemish Art at the Royal Archives of Art History (the largest art historical archives in the world). Jan is also a bit of a Sherlock Homes. He finds and recovers stolen and lost art to their rightful owners when ever possible.
How do major US groups (companies, organizations, etc.) shape society:

Guest: Robbin Burr, Executive Director Center on Halsted

This segment focuses on two questions:

  1. How do large companies shape US society in general.
  2. What impact might large companies have on the proposed Constitutional Amendment to legally limit marriage to opposite sex couples.


Robbin Burr, appointed June 1, 2004 serves as the first Executive Director of Chicago’s Center on Halsted. Center on Halsted, serves the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender (LGBT) community of Chicago and the surrounding area. The community center provides social, recreational, educational and emotional support through three program areas: Youth, Mental Health/Psychotherapy Services and Community/Cultural Services.

Prior to joining Center on Halsted Burr was a pioneer in LGBT programs during her 25-year career with American Airlines. She was an original member and the first woman to serve on the American Airlines Rainbow TeAAm, one of the first dedicated LGBT marketing and sales forces established by a Fortune 100 company. Burr also was a key proponent in implementing the company's domestic partnership program, securing support from corporate management and more than a dozen diverse employee groups.

She helped create the LGBT marketing and sales program in 1996 while working at the airline's headquarters in Dallas/Ft. Worth. Burr has been active in a number of LGBT organizations and causes. She was co-chair of American Airlines GLBT employee group and served as CO-chair for the airline’s Diversity Advisory Council, which also includes a variety of ethnic, racial and religious group representatives and represents counsel to corporate officers. Among community activities, Burr has been involved with fund raising for the National Center for Lesbian Rights, the Texas AIDS Ride and is a past board member of Dallas Black Tie Dinner committee, the nation's largest LGBT black tie event. She served as honorary CO-chair of the 2003 Chicago House World Tour gala and currently serves on the board of the National Association of Lesbian and Gay Community Centers.

Burr and her partner Lisa reside in Chicago.

Sheron Rosen

Sheron is the only child of David and Mildred Klein who were married just under 50 years when David, her father, passed away in 1990. Her mother and best friend passed away in 1999. Sheron was born December 27, 1943 in New York City, grew up in N.Y.C. and attended New York University on an academic scholarship. She graduated from NYU with a degree in language arts in 1965 and, 3 days later on June 12, 1965 she married Herbert H. Rosen.
On June 13, 1965 the newlywed Rosen's relocated to Maryland for what was to be 1 year before they returned to the family base in New York City. However, while still living in Maryland, in 1968 the Rosen's first son, Eric, was born, followed in 1972 by the birth of their second son, Roger.

Sheron pursued her career as a stay at home mom until 1979 when she found part-time employment as a proof-reader, then editor, then private tutor and, finally, as a substitute teacher in Montgomery County MD working at the junior and senior high school levels. She made sure, during those early years of re-entering the work force, that she was always home when the children were home. If the job did not allow for that, she did not take the job. Motherhood was always her primary focus. In 1987 she was, unbeknownst to her, to begin an adventure and a journey she had not planned or packed for. It is, albeit, one she is happy to have been sent on and one that has enriched her life beyond her wildest expectations.

It was in 1987 that her younger son, Roger, came out to the family as a gay man. In 1990, after several years of suffering the loneliness of being closeted and after educating herself about homosexuality by visiting the library on a daily basis, quietly and privately working through her own previously ill-informed misgivings about having a gay child, she and her husband joined MetroDC PFLAG. Sheron immediately became a help-line volunteer fielding calls from people just beginning the process of grappling with the knowledge of having a gay family member, friend, or colleague. Her help line work led her to a seat on the Board of Directors of Metro DC PFLAG, then into the advocacy effort of the organization and in 2000 Sheron, as Maryland Advocacy Coordinator for all 7 Maryland PFLAG chapters, organized the broad based coalition that ultimately secured the passage of the Maryland Anti-discrimination Act of 2001.

Following Sheron's work on the Maryland Anti-discrimination Act she enjoyed a short stint as chapter Vice President, then chapter President and now she serves as Maryland State Leader/Coordinator for all the Maryland chapters. Sheron continues to live in Maryland with the man she married in 1965 and same one who promised to take her back to New York 1 year later. And so it goes! Her younger son lives in New York with his husband, Rick (They were "married" by the same Rabbi who presided at Roger's Bar Mitzvah). Roger is currently on Broadway in "Fiddler on the Roof." Her eldest son, Eric, a mortgage banker, lives in Maryland with his wife Lorrin and their 2 sons.
Toby Johnson

POB 12822
San Antonio,
TX, 78212-0822

Religious / Spiritual Denominations

Guest: Toby Johnson, PhD

Please review show #6 above for more details on Dr. Johnson.
Wrap-Up. Why YOU should care about this issue!


If the proposed amendment to the U.S. Constitution to define marriage becomes law, what would happen to you? In this show, we challenge you to ponder three "what if" events - events you or someone you love might just face - today. Your comments most welcome. Email a note to:
Barb Elgin


I'm pleased to introduce my good friend - Barb Elgin aka: Coach Sappho. (866-396-BARB) as our occassional co-host. With Barb's help, we enjoyed meeting: Dr. Morgen and his family. Dr. Mead offered valuable insights from an international perspective. Sheron Rosen's story provides key insights on how we all have a stake in this issue.

Barb has a Masters in social work degree, and is a behavioral healthcare professional, life and business coach who:

  • inspires each lesbian woman's success in love, work and play
  • helps healthcare professionals develop innovative services and products for businesses and clients
  • consults with employee assistance programs on better serving their GLBT clients
  • educates and trains organizations ready to become GLBT "employers of choice"
Barb is also co-author of the recently released CD Relationship M.A.G.I.C. for Life and the ebook 7 Simple Secrets to Successful Workshops. She is a columnist for Girlfriends Magazine, Echelon Magazine and GLP Careers. Barb can be reached at 866-396-BARB and by going to her websites: barbelgin.com and coachsappho.com.